But … first, to be confessional: I don’t have this figured out, I don’t yet live the way I want to live–especially monetarily, and the whole conversation makes me uncomfortable because of its “otherness” from the way I’m used to thinking.

But I think that perhaps Charlie was talking about more than just not being greedy. For me, that would be a first step: not virtually salivating at the front window of a Banana Republic store or purchasing (immediately, unthinkingly) the newest album from bands/artists I like. Yep, non-hoarding and over-consuming would be positive steps for me.

What I mean, though, is I think our conversation can’t stop there. I wonder if what the NT gets at … and what Charlie was attempting to grasp onto … is a nonsensical way of life that calls our “securities” just what they are: lies. Maybe we need to take seriously what a prophetic stance might look like regarding money. We take for granted (if I may condense this whole preceding conversation) that our financial wellbeing is a set of options that we have a choice in controlling. But for most of the world, this is not so. Civil wars, droughts, addictions make these “options” for saving elusive. And it seems that Jesus’ statements about money might be so shocking as to state that we are better servants of God if we’re not concerned with getting by. (See various parts of the Sermon on the Mount, the Rich Young Ruler, etc.)

How we might give up what we have by virtue of being remotely affluent Americans is a hard question. As I sit at my desk in a richly endowed educational institution, I know that I can never truly give everything away. I will probably never have to work collecting cans from the gutter to recycle in order to buy my next meal. How might I live so as to be a testimony (a martyr, literally) for faith in Christ and him crucified and calling everything else, which appears to be gain, “shit” (which is what Paul says in Greek)?

The scary part about holding to an ideal, prophetic stance is that prophets have a way of being unliked … or killed. And that this is uncomfortable. Obviously, I’m not dropping out of school or shredding my boxes of clothing. But I will make the superficial step of thinking long and hard about this. But that’s very hypocritical, since I know in general that God calls us to do more than think. Alas, I digress.

And I suppose when two phrases are in complete opposition to one another we can’t possibly come up with an understanding of that phrase out of the context in which it was spoken and the discipline it was meant to inform. My bad.

If I figured you were only talking about spending your money on crap for yourself I probably wouldn’t have commented. However, saving for retirement isn’t really about spending money on crap. The idea behind it isn’t hoarding. And I don’t even think it is a lack of trust in GOd. Why can’t it be that God is providing for us now what might be coming in the future?

Radical financial obedience and trust does not limit us to living without saving anything or call us to pool all our resources. Does it? Then to be really radical, why don’t we get all the provisions for the day in the morning and give away what we don’t use. Isn’t that what Manna teaches us?

We have to balance the radical with practical. (And why can’t that be done by faith, J.R.? Having balance and being practical is certainly a function of faith for me.) This is the point I was trying to make. Good on you for trying not to hoard. I hope you are really formed by that message. We all need to hear it.

I think I think that it revolves around the love, my brother. I would say that the difference between saving money and hoarding it is in your intentions for the stuff. Are you saving it to acquire more crap? Is it earmarked for a special offering or ministry purpose? Are you living your life so that when the Holy Spirit says “give that dude some money,” you do it without complaining? Is your money distancing you from humanity or is it helping you connect with people and meet their needs?

Ever read the book “Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger”? Me neither, but I’ve heard it’s really good. Ask your friendly neighborhood librarian to show you where you can find a copy.

p.s. I think this is going to be a swell class.

PS- Was that Wesley who said that? I think it is but I don’t remember.

And I commend you for wrestling with this issue and seeking to not hoard. I was just trying to point out that the conversation turns away from money often times because hoarding is often not the root of the issue. And sharing money through community is not the only solution.

If you felt attacked by my post, I apologize for portraying that attitude. I didn’t intend to attack you, just the idea that personal security is not wrong.

You are right that people in need do need your money sometimes. But not only money.

It was not a personal attack against you.

And I think that many times people in need, need exactly my money.

Hoarding is way different in my mind than having a savings account. A savings account would have been nice when I had to charge my medical bills to my credit card. Several thousand dollars is a lot to come up with at one time, even for a church. But I did recieve prayers and love from my church that got me through a very hard time in my life. That was way more important than having the silly money.

Money isn’t the only way the Kingdom gets its work done. Could someone elses monetary generosity have helped me through a really needy time in my life? Maybe. But maybe it is good for me to be reminded that my mental and emotional health is a valuable resource and paying my monthly credit card bill reminds me to take care of that aspect of my life.

I know you didn’t want justifications. But I have hard time believing that it is sinful (or even just not “radical” enough) to have money around for things that most likely will come up that are important. Many times people in need are much better off without your damn money. Money and things have too much importance to us. I think the reason the topics switched to time and attitude is because we have to hold all these things in balance in order to truly be radical and trusting of God.

What’s that phrase “earn all you can, save all you can, give all you can”? That sounds pretty stinkin’ radical. And yet doesn’t force us to persue wealth and hoarding. It is a practical guideline.

Don’t get me wrong, I think that the time and attitude points are great. But it puzzles me how uncomfortable we are about talking about money. Just this once I wanted to single out my own lack of trust in God in my future and my tendancy to hoarde rather than give generously.

the tentmaking comment was right on.