I’ve been reading some books for an introduction to Hermeneutics class. Pretty standard stuff really. The books generally dealt with some of the bigger themes in both the Old and the New Testament. Harmless, basic, introductory stuff right? Not that New Testament Themes book. That book is rocking my world, well I guess Jesus rocks my world and that book touches on some basic Jesus stuff. And it scares me to death. So here’s what’s got me all wound up. Basically the early church’s expectation that Christ would return soon (and even if it wasn’t soon, that he would return abruptly) led them to frown on saving money. Saving money was basically a way of saying that you either did not expect Christ to return soon or that you had better ideas about what could be done with that money in the future, rather than using it today for the work of the Kingdom. Excess money was seen as baggage, after-all what if Christ came back and you had piles of money saved up?! What if you were called to give a reason for why you saved (read: hoarded) this for yourself instead of putting it to work in the Kingdom? Wow. Good point. The better I become at dealing with my finances the more important saving money is to me, but it’s really all about my own security and comfort. I’m not saving money to use to help the poor, I’m not saving money to put to work in the Kingdom. It’s all about my own “security.”
Then last night at community group we started talking about wisdom, specifically Christian wisdom. The wisdom of the cross looks very foolish to the world. So I brought my “problem” before the group. Should Christians save money? Is it hoarding for our own security so that we have to depend even less on God… even less on fellow Christians? Does saving money encourage us to put up walls of “security” and distance us from the poor? Well for one, I’m bound and determined not to just find a comfortable answer to this question that still allows me to save while I ignore the needs of others. I desperately do not want to proof text my way into justifying what America has trained me to think already. So if this conversation leads me where I think it might that means a radical amount of trust in God and specifically in the church.
What if we Christians took care of our elderly and likewise trusted that after a lifetime of giving away, of emptying ourselves that the church would care for us? Can we do that?
Dealing with similar stuff right now bro…as you know. Saved all this money for school (which I still think was a good idea), but now what? Give all of it away? Finally get a non-gas guzzling car? Finally go to the dentist, or the optometrist after years of thriftiness? Visit my friend ChuckP3 in KC?
Decision, decisions…Ragan Sutterfield has a similar discussion going on over on the EP forums…I think it would be cool of you to re-post your thoughts there too.
man that is tough stuff to chew on. one question i think has to be added to the mix is responsiblity to ones family (to provide for their care) god forbid that anything would happen to you and make them part of the widows and orphans we are to take care of. there is also the question of not becoming a burden to our christian community because we did not set aside anything for the old age years.
I hear ya Mike and I don’t think that being purposely irresponsible is a good idea. But I think that the “responsibility to family” is all too often used as an excuse to not think and pray about this seriously. Can there be a place for “taking care of your [biological] family” while also pouring yourself out for others, which means taking care of your real family? Because I see a whole lot of Christians who give very little to others and draw the lines of who their finances will benefit at the biological family.
I’m challenged to get beyond that mentality, because I see it in myself. I have been catechized by America to go “get some for me and mine.” What would it look like for us to be more trusting of the community to care for us, and in turn care for those in the community. Would that really be a burden?
I think that worrying about being a burdon to the community because we have not handled money properly is a good point. What if, however, the Church (whatever that means) pooled its retirement money putting trust in its leaders to distribute it accordingly so that basic needs (what ever that means)are met. I think this is part of the radical challenge of thinking this way.
However, there are a great many holes in this. For example, in the Church of the Nazarene we are too divided to make this kind of committment.
What if money isn’t the issue as much as time? (example working 40-60 hours per week in an occupation that sustains my affluence and status in society, vs. giving myself to “tentmaking” that leaves time to give away to the kingdom. Not that it’s an either/or just another angle on the conversation.
Hi, I think Brian makes a great point about time. JR and I took new jobs last year and went from scraping by to actually having money. It’s been easy to just open up the checkbook to others but what has been difficult is devoting time. I agree that you shouldn’t drop the question for an easy answer, though.
chuck and all. yeah i think you are right. i think it is the attitude more than anything else. in the states we certainly have an ethic of working our selves to death just to accumulate crap.
the tentmaking comment was right on.
While I like what a lot of you are saying, I think it’s important to note that the title of the post was intentionally Radical [finanical] Trust and Obedience. But we’ve quickly changed the conversation to Radical [time] and [attitude] Trust and Obedience.
Don’t get me wrong, I think that the time and attitude points are great. But it puzzles me how uncomfortable we are about talking about money. Just this once I wanted to single out my own lack of trust in God in my future and my tendancy to hoarde rather than give generously.
I agree. I’m in. Great post!
What the hell is wrong with personal security or planning for an emergency? I can’t be radically trusting or obeying God if I am saving for my future?
Hoarding is way different in my mind than having a savings account. A savings account would have been nice when I had to charge my medical bills to my credit card. Several thousand dollars is a lot to come up with at one time, even for a church. But I did recieve prayers and love from my church that got me through a very hard time in my life. That was way more important than having the silly money.
Money isn’t the only way the Kingdom gets its work done. Could someone elses monetary generosity have helped me through a really needy time in my life? Maybe. But maybe it is good for me to be reminded that my mental and emotional health is a valuable resource and paying my monthly credit card bill reminds me to take care of that aspect of my life.
I know you didn’t want justifications. But I have hard time believing that it is sinful (or even just not “radical” enough) to have money around for things that most likely will come up that are important. Many times people in need are much better off without your damn money. Money and things have too much importance to us. I think the reason the topics switched to time and attitude is because we have to hold all these things in balance in order to truly be radical and trusting of God.
What’s that phrase “earn all you can, save all you can, give all you can”? That sounds pretty stinkin’ radical. And yet doesn’t force us to persue wealth and hoarding. It is a practical guideline.
Emily,
This post was an attempt for me to wrestle with something that really challenged me recently, an attempt not to just brush it off but instead to be changed by what I’ve learned.
It was not a personal attack against you.
And I think that many times people in need, need exactly my money.
I didn’t take your blogging as a personal attack. My personal reference was an example of how a rounded and balanced view of money, prayer, time, etc. helps build the Kingdom as well. “Radical” sometimes expects more sacrifice, but doesn’t actually produce the desired results. Its a fine ideal, but does it function in action the way we would like?
And I commend you for wrestling with this issue and seeking to not hoard. I was just trying to point out that the conversation turns away from money often times because hoarding is often not the root of the issue. And sharing money through community is not the only solution.
If you felt attacked by my post, I apologize for portraying that attitude. I didn’t intend to attack you, just the idea that personal security is not wrong.
You are right that people in need do need your money sometimes. But not only money.
Great post Charlie, this is something I have been wrestling with as well. How do I balance being “smart” with my money (ie, retirement) and giving to the extent that Christ has challanged me to? Sometimes I am not sure if it is a “balance” as much as it’s all about faith. He said He would give us the cattle on a thousand hills, who am I to think that isn’t enough, or that He can’t provide?
I also want to comment on the pharse Emily brought up, “earn all you can, save all you can, give all you can”. I have always herad that this was the “christian” perspective for finances, but I can’t for the life of my figure out how you can save as much as you can and also give away as much as you can. How are these two things not in direct opposition of each other? Just a thought.
PS- Was that Wesley who said that? I think it is but I don’t remember.
J.R.,
That’s what I’m getting at. We can’t “Save all we can” and also “Give all we can” at the same time. I just wanted to admit that myself and start working towards being more on the “give all you can” side of things. As I was talking to Kara about this the other night I said that 1, Wesley’s phrase wasn’t “Earn all you can, save all you can and spend all you can” but that’s how we live our lives. More than anything I want to be formed in a way so that my first thought about excess money isn’t just how to spend it on myself, but how to benefit others and do Kingdom work with it. That’s where I need to be.
Chuck man this is a great post and the commments you have added are solid as well. just wanted to say that. thats all.
This is from your library friend.
I think I think that it revolves around the love, my brother. I would say that the difference between saving money and hoarding it is in your intentions for the stuff. Are you saving it to acquire more crap? Is it earmarked for a special offering or ministry purpose? Are you living your life so that when the Holy Spirit says “give that dude some money,” you do it without complaining? Is your money distancing you from humanity or is it helping you connect with people and meet their needs?
Ever read the book “Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger”? Me neither, but I’ve heard it’s really good. Ask your friendly neighborhood librarian to show you where you can find a copy.
p.s. I think this is going to be a swell class.
It was Wesley.
And I suppose when two phrases are in complete opposition to one another we can’t possibly come up with an understanding of that phrase out of the context in which it was spoken and the discipline it was meant to inform. My bad.
If I figured you were only talking about spending your money on crap for yourself I probably wouldn’t have commented. However, saving for retirement isn’t really about spending money on crap. The idea behind it isn’t hoarding. And I don’t even think it is a lack of trust in GOd. Why can’t it be that God is providing for us now what might be coming in the future?
Radical financial obedience and trust does not limit us to living without saving anything or call us to pool all our resources. Does it? Then to be really radical, why don’t we get all the provisions for the day in the morning and give away what we don’t use. Isn’t that what Manna teaches us?
We have to balance the radical with practical. (And why can’t that be done by faith, J.R.? Having balance and being practical is certainly a function of faith for me.) This is the point I was trying to make. Good on you for trying not to hoard. I hope you are really formed by that message. We all need to hear it.
Okay, I’ll jump in here to a conversation that’s already probably expired.
But … first, to be confessional: I don’t have this figured out, I don’t yet live the way I want to live–especially monetarily, and the whole conversation makes me uncomfortable because of its “otherness” from the way I’m used to thinking.
But I think that perhaps Charlie was talking about more than just not being greedy. For me, that would be a first step: not virtually salivating at the front window of a Banana Republic store or purchasing (immediately, unthinkingly) the newest album from bands/artists I like. Yep, non-hoarding and over-consuming would be positive steps for me.
What I mean, though, is I think our conversation can’t stop there. I wonder if what the NT gets at … and what Charlie was attempting to grasp onto … is a nonsensical way of life that calls our “securities” just what they are: lies. Maybe we need to take seriously what a prophetic stance might look like regarding money. We take for granted (if I may condense this whole preceding conversation) that our financial wellbeing is a set of options that we have a choice in controlling. But for most of the world, this is not so. Civil wars, droughts, addictions make these “options” for saving elusive. And it seems that Jesus’ statements about money might be so shocking as to state that we are better servants of God if we’re not concerned with getting by. (See various parts of the Sermon on the Mount, the Rich Young Ruler, etc.)
How we might give up what we have by virtue of being remotely affluent Americans is a hard question. As I sit at my desk in a richly endowed educational institution, I know that I can never truly give everything away. I will probably never have to work collecting cans from the gutter to recycle in order to buy my next meal. How might I live so as to be a testimony (a martyr, literally) for faith in Christ and him crucified and calling everything else, which appears to be gain, “shit” (which is what Paul says in Greek)?
The scary part about holding to an ideal, prophetic stance is that prophets have a way of being unliked … or killed. And that this is uncomfortable. Obviously, I’m not dropping out of school or shredding my boxes of clothing. But I will make the superficial step of thinking long and hard about this. But that’s very hypocritical, since I know in general that God calls us to do more than think. Alas, I digress.